Episode Three: A Conversation with Dr. James McNeil, PhD, CRC, NCC

Where can CRCs work in the private sector? It's a question that crosses many newly certified rehabilitation counselors' minds. Dr. James McNeil, PhD, CRC, NCC spent a good portion of his career working for Lowe's, Prudential Financial, and Amazon before becoming an educator. 

In this episode of Inside Rehabilitation Counseling, Dr. McNeil puts it plainly: "wherever people with disabilities are, that's where CRCs need to be." Hear some of Dr. McNeil's insights into his time in the private sector and how CRCs can become "pioneers of the profession" to pave new career paths. From search terms to seek out in job openings and how to use your knowledge as a CRC to advocate for your expertise, we hope you enjoy this discussion.

Transcript

Pam (Voiceover): 0:05

Hello, and welcome to Inside Rehabilitation Counseling, presented by the Commission on Rehabilitation Counselor Certification. I'm Pam Schleman, executive Director of C R C C, and we're so glad to have you join us for our third episode, exploring the Art and Science of Rehabilitation Counseling. We are often asked by rehabilitation counseling students about the career opportunities that await them. While many end up working in state vocational rehabilitation agencies, the CRC opens up numerous career pathways and provides abundant possibilities for new and experienced professionals. Dr. James McNeals, our guest for this episode, and he is a firm believer that many CRCs today will need to be pioneers in the profession. That means venturing out to new spaces in which the specialized knowledge of serving individuals with disabilities is needed, including in the corporate and Fortune 500 world. He himself has spent time working as a CRC for Amazon, Lowe's, and Prudential Financial. Just to name a few. Please enjoy our conversation with Dr. James McNeil.

Pam Shlemon, CRCC: 1:05

Dr. McNeil, thank you for joining us today. Um, so if we can get right into some of the questions we'd like to ask you. And these questions are around the work that you have been doing in the field, um, the last several years. How did you get involved in rehabilitation counseling? What drew you to this field?

Dr. James McNeil: 1:21

Yeah, such a great question. First, let me start by, uh, saying thank you for inviting me and allowing me to be a part of this podcast series. I'm certainly happy to be here. I guess I'll have to go back all the way to my studies in, in the rehabilitation counseling program at University of Buffalo. There I was, I was first introduced to rehabilitation counseling. I didn't quite understand what it was. All I knew at the time is that I wanted to do some, some form of counseling. Uh, and to be honest, I thought I would just be working with, uh, children and adolescents with behavioral issues. But it wasn't until I started an internship with the New York State Commission for the Blind. And there I was introduced, uh, to working with adults with disabilities, specifically blindness and low vision. And just from that experience of, uh, meeting with individuals, hearing their stories, uh, providing them with vocational rehabilitation services, just learning more about it, learning more about the a d a, just became very interesting to me, me. And at the same time, I saw how effective I was<laugh>, uh, helping people overcome some of their challenges as it related to, uh, their personal life and also employment. So that's how I was first introduced, uh, to rehabilitation counseling. And then from that point on, uh, I decided just to stick with it. So much of my experiences have just been revolved around, uh, working with people with disabilities. And whether that be in the public sector or in the private sector, that's just been the main focus is, is helping people with disabilities, uh, secure and maintain employment and also increase their independence.

Pam Shlemon, CRCC: 3:07

We know that many folks come into the field, not directly. It's always a path that they were introduced somehow to the field, and whether it's like, like what you did through internship or something, um, or the professor I talked to. But there's always, more than likely they came into it through a unique process, not directly like some other professions. They know what they wanna be and they're gonna go right into it. So first of all, we wanna thank you for your service into this field as well.

Dr. James McNeil: 3:35

Oh, thank you so much.

Pam Shlemon, CRCC: 3:36

When you, when you graduated, we know that the largest, uh, employer of rehab counselors, CRCs, are state vo rehab agencies. I know that you did some work at, at state VR agencies, but you also then took a very different route than most people do. And can you spend a little bit of time talking about your experience working in state VR and then transitioning into the corporate sector?

Dr. James McNeil: 4:03

As you know, I started, uh, at, with the New York State Commission for the Blind as, uh, working an internship From there, uh, after graduating the program and then, uh, getting my crc, I decided to relocate, go back home, which was Pennsylvania and work for the Office of Vocational Rehabilitation. I did that for a few years and I enjoyed it, uh, helping people get jobs and, and things of that nature. But then, you know, kind of life happened, um, started a family and, uh, my wife, she's from the south, we eventually decided to leave, uh, Pennsylvania and relocate to the south. And as you know, you can't transfer from state rehab agency to state rehab agency. And so I came in the South, and that's all I knew at the time. So I, I, I decided to apply for, and then eventually was hired and worked for the South Carolina Vocational Rehabilitation Department. I did that and started working with a different population, individuals with, uh, mental health conditions and substance abuse and things of that nature. But I had a short stint with them. I had a short stint with them because even while I was working with a different population, the system was relatively the same. I wanted something different. I, I knew I wanted to just stay, you know, working with, uh, individuals with disabilities, but I wanted to see if I could just, you know, uh, uh, have a new experience or work in a different setting while doing that. And so, uh, just a thought, a random thought crossed my mind. And the thought was, Hey, what would it be like to, instead of helping individuals with disabilities find employment, what would it be like to help individuals with disabilities help them while they're working, while they're on the job? So, for an employer, um, I didn't know anybody really, uh, to have a conversation with. Uh, it was just a risk that I, I was willing to take. I went online to different, uh, job search websites, and I just started plugging in keywords. So I'm saying this on purpose cuz it's very difficult, uh, to, to locate within the private sector a a job that's essentially for rehabilitation professionals. They're there, but they might be titled something totally different than what we're used to at a state rehab agency. And so I just started plugging in different words and, and, and, and keywords and things of that nature. And I came across something very interesting, um, with Lowe's, Lowe's companies. Now Lowe's is down here in the south. They're headquarters, uh, they're in Mooresville, North Carolina. And they were actually advertising for an accommodation specialist. There's a key word. And I reviewed the job description and it was very similar what they were looking for to, to the skills and the knowledge that I have. And so I looked at it, I applied, and next thing you know, they reached out to me. I wanna say they reached out to me within hours, but I, you know, they, it was probably a day or two, but once they got in contact with me, they, they really, you know, wanted me to be a part of their, their company. And so they, they kind of reeled me in. And that was kind of my introduction to crossing over from public to private at Lowe's. Their department is called the Benefits and Accommodations Department. And there, what I would do was provide job accommodations to all of their employees, uh, within the US employees that requested an accommodation or had a disability. So that was my introduction, uh, and that's how I got involved in the private sector. And I enjoyed it. I was there for nearly two years, and then I decided Lowe's was going through as a company, a transformation. And so that, that kind of got me, you know, kind of looking to see what else is out there, uh, just for, just in case purposes. And then I came across, um, another opportunity that was with Prudential Financial. How does a rehabilitation professional work with Prudential Financial? So when I was looking, again at the different websites, uh, searching for jobs, what they were advertising for, uh, was a rehabilitation specialist. That was a key term too. If you're listening, write that down. Rehabilitation specialist. And so I looked at that job description and that job description actually, uh, to work in that position, you actually needed a crc. I don't think anybody who, uh, worked for re uh, uh, Prudential in that department as a rehabilitation specialist, um, didn't have a crc. You had to have a crc. So I immediately felt like this position, this, this role, this department was created for people like me,<laugh>. And so, um, uh, went through that interview process, met with fellow CRCs, and just started doing things that I could do, you know, which all came down to helping people who were receiving long-term disability benefits, um, find employment because they still felt like they could do something. They couldn't do what they used to do, but they still wanted to do something because they felt they have purpose. And my job was to help them kind of locate a job within their ability and, and, and capabilities. So I did that for, for a couple of years. And that was great. Uh, made a lot of connections, uh, worked with tons of employers from across the country because when you work for a disability insurance, uh, agency, your actual client is the employer, but you're providing direct services to their employees. But that introduced me, not just to working with, you know, uh, different people with, uh, different disabilities across the country, but also different employers after that. Um, I did that for a while. And next thing you know, something was happening in America, not just in America, all over the world. There was this company that was growing and getting bigger and just, uh, making a lot of noise. And that was Amazon. And Amazon was everywhere. And as they were growing their disability and leave department was growing. So I looked into that and, um, I came across, uh, another position, and here's a title for that. It was called a Senior Accommodation Consultant. And I applied for that. And essentially, uh, you, you, you know, they would want you to just provide job accommodations to their employees, uh, who work in different settings, whether they work in distribution centers or what they call fulfillment centers, call centers, uh, stores, you name it, Amazon is everywhere. And they have almost everything. My job was to provide those accommodations. So I did that for a few months, you know, that seemed, you know, I, I, I knew how to do that and I felt very comfortable doing that. And I, and I felt like I could do it. It was just second nature, uh, just because of my tr my education and training prior to that point. And so I wanted something a little bit more challenging, and there was, there was room for that. And so I eventually left far as being a senior accommodation consultant to accepting a role called a, um, compliance consultant within the Disability and Leaves organization. And what did that entail in that role that required me to manage all of the disability and leave policies for the us? So we're, we're talking about a d a policy for Amazon, F M L A policy for Amazon. Any trainings that were created, I would, uh, review those to make sure that they were compliant. Um, and just in general, making sure Amazon's policies and process was compliant, not just with federal law, like the ada, but also state and local law. You get into California in certain states where the state law might supersede the federal law. And so you have to be mindful of that as well. Much of my work there required me to partner with attorneys. So then you have me who's a rehabilitation professional, crc, and then attorneys<laugh>. And there's a, there's a, there's a little, little difference. It's probably not a little, there's a significant difference between how we view things and work on things as a CRC versus attorney attorneys. And one of those things, I won't get into it too much, but I think it's important, is that we understand the ada, we understand the law as a whole. Um, that's what we were trained in. Attorneys. Uh, not to say they don't understand the a d a, cuz they probably do, but much of their work, um, in decision making is based off of case law, based off of those, those decisions from those federal judges, you, you start to try to, you know, review your policy and procedures and, and make adjustments based off of that case law, where that's not the lens that I work out of. And so that was great because, uh, those attorneys viewed me as an expert on the ada, on the law itself. And so we would collaborate and we would work together, uh, to strengthen our policies and process to make it more inclusive for all instead of for certain individuals based off that case, you know, that was reviewed. So that's how I jumped over into the, into the private sector. And I loved it. I made a lot of, uh, connections at the time. There wasn't many CRCs in the private sector, but by the time I left, there were a handful of us. There were a handful of us. And, um, many of them I stay in touch with. And I'm just gonna throw it out here. There are some that, uh, works for Google. There's some that works for Meta or Facebook and that I'm friends with. And then lastly, there are a lot that just works for, uh, different disability insurance

Pam Shlemon, CRCC: 13:23

Agencies. That is so important to hear your trajectory of where you started and how you kept moving in, building upon your career, and moving from date VR to the private sector as you demonstrated. And I think it's also important for students and young professionals to hear that state vr, like I said, is the number one place that, uh, CRCs go to start, but often they don't stay. And so CRCs and others don't really know where to go next. And I think you shut some light on all these opportunities that the CRC offers. So the CRC with that credential, there's a world of opportunities that you can, uh, use your expertise, your breadth and knowledge of, of your skillset, um, and your expertise in disability. And take that really both the private sector, nonprofit, your own consulting business, whatever that might be. And I do wanna repeat some of the titles that you mentioned. Cause I think that's important. Benefits and accommodations specialist, senior accommodations consultant. And so people may not know some of this terminology and compliance consultant, and there might be others in there that I missed, but thank you for sharing that. I think that was really important. Inclusivity and accessibility should be the norm and it's not. How did you, uh, you know, when you were working on policies, I know it's important for you to make sure that businesses create those policies that are inclusive and that accommodations exist for all, not just a certain population. How were you successful in bringing that to Amazon?

Dr. James McNeil: 14:56

I would say that, and this is, and this is just my own experience there, that there, that there wasn't just one way of doing it, but there's, there's many ways and there's many things that you can do. And it happened kind of gradually over time. Um, and sometimes just when a problem is presented, then at that moment, you're kind of activated and, and, and looking for a way to respond appropriately to the situation. So I say all that to say, you know, when I'm reviewing, when I'm reviewing policies and, and processes, I have an idea. The first thing I wanna do is try to understand the business. What are they looking to achieve? Okay, how are they looking to move through these stages? And in what ways are they trying to do that? There's no issue there. A business says we wanna streamline it, wanna make it faster, better, bigger. That's all fine. But there's another part of it that's just as important in my mind, always goes to, uh, making sure it's compliant. Is it compliant with these laws and rules and regulations? Because I have a pretty good understanding of these disability related laws that really plays a big part in me, uh, when I review some of these processes and policies and saying, Hey, you know what, I like this. I see where you guys are going, but I think it's, it's missing something. Or, or, or, or something should be added, or this right here that you're requiring all employees to do, we should probably take another look at it because according to the law, certain employees with, with certain disabilities, uh, are not required to do X, Y, and Z. Well, a person that has an obvious disability versus, uh, uh, invisible disability, the law is very clear. Is, uh, when it comes to, uh, requesting medical documentation,<laugh>, if it's obvious, then we should kind of refrain from doing that. But if your policy states that all employees, regardless of it's obvious or, or invisible, uh, have to do that, then you're gonna run into some issues. And so having that ex that that existing knowledge of what the law and these, and these and these regulations state really helps when you're taking a look at these policies to try to make them more, um, compliant, inclusive and, and just, and just, uh, employee friendly<laugh>. Yeah, I think that's, that's missed right there, is, are these things employee friendly? You know, does it show these policies and process that you actually care<laugh>, um, about your employees and that you're making it easier for them to get the assistance that they need? Another thing that's extremely important is having resources. I cannot just rely on my own mind or my own experiences, but knowing where to go for additional assistance, help, information, accommodations that I have not probably heard of or know about. Resources such as the job accommodation, network, resource, resources such as I believe earn, I'll put it like this too. And state rehabilitation agencies,<laugh>, they are a great resource, right? So there's been several times that I reached out to them when brainstorming with an employee and their manager and trying to figure out an appropriate accommodation or a solution to the, to the issue where we just came to a standstill. But because I knew about and worked it, uh, with and for state rehabilitation agencies, that was one of the first things that popped in my mind, reaching out to them. So that's proved to be very beneficial. I would also say, you know, making an effort to value the employee's perspective, actually bringing the employee into the conversation<laugh> and saying, Hey, do you have any thoughts? Do you have any ideas? Uh, is there something in the past, maybe you worked for a different employer, maybe you, you, you ran into this issue before, is there something that worked for you that could possibly help you Right now? I think that's oftentimes missed. And I would argue that that should be probably the first thing you do if you want to make a, uh, you know, your workplace more inclusive and more accessible, is to start with that employee. Nine times outta 10, you know, changes are probably needed where you are in that business because of a situation that came up because of a, an employee that needed some type of assistance. That's usually the prompt. So once an issue is, or a problem is, is raised maybe by the employee or the manager, a great place to start is to go back to the employee, have a conversation with them, get their thoughts, see what might work for them or not. And then if you aren't able to gain any traction there, then to utilize some of these resources and some of the, you know, connections that you have, you know, some of the people you worked with that's in the rehab field, or, uh, whatever it takes really<laugh>. Yeah, there's a lot out there. And I'm sure there's some other people out here that says that I do this and I do this, and this has been effective. Um, sharing that information, what worked for you and not keeping it a secret, I think would benefit rehabilitation professionals as a whole. So I try to do that a lot through trainings and webinars that I facilitate and conduct. And through my businesses, I tried to just get out some of these things that worked, some of these u unique situations that I dealt with on the job or with certain individuals and tell others in the field what worked in this case so that they can, that use it or get some ideas off of what worked for me. I

Pam Shlemon, CRCC: 20:28

Don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I would assume that you would agree that CRCs need to be in, in the private sector more doing this type of work. If you don't have that knowledge, the laws, let's just talk the laws for right now. If you don't have that, you're not gonna be able to support that employee. And really the value that you bring to the organization as a CRC is so valuable, even though people don't see it, and employers may not recognize it, but it is invaluable.

Dr. James McNeil: 20:55

We've, we've been as, as a C R C or as rehab professional, we are specifically trained on the ada. Um, we are specifically trained on disability discrimination. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, job accommodations, federal, state, local laws, uh, how to interact, uh, with individuals with disabilities, right? I don't, I don't know no other profession, not even in the medical field where you spend so much time learning about disability etiquette in the proper ways to do things. And so I guess one, one thing that comes to mind is as far as the importance of CRCs being in the private sector, I'll just put it like this. Wherever people with disabilities are, that's where CRCs need to be. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And so you can, you can quote that and because I like how I just put that where wherever people with disabilities are, that's where, uh, CRCs need to be. And guess what? People with disabilities work in the private sector in the times that we're living in, you know, covid and then workplace injuries and things of that nature. There will be more people with disabilities working in the private sector. And because of that, you're gonna need some people who, uh, have specialized training to provide assistance, vocational rehabilitation assistance, that it, it's not just, uh, I'm here to talk to you or put you on the leave of absence, help you receive short-term disability so we can get paid benefits. There's more to so much more to it. And we have the skills, we have the knowledge of skills to provide a more holistic approach. So we're not just helping them with, you know, people with disabilities that continue pay. We're not just helping them getting time off they need from work, we're helping them in other areas as well. Work on the whole person mm-hmm.<affirmative>, which helps them to be able to either stay at work or return to work. And I think those two things are really difficult for people who are not specialized, uh, in our field. It's a very difficult thing for them to do. I wanna say this too, you might get to this later, but I think this is extremely important. I'm going around the country talking about something called disability management. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> disability management is an important key term that, that employers use, that private employers use. Private employers do not necessarily use vocational rehabilitation, nonprofit disability organizations, state rehab agencies, we use those words, the words called vocational rehabilitation. But employers in a private sector, they focus on something called disability management. And what that is, is that's when employers are trying to find a way to manage disability in the workplace. They focus on, and it, it, it kind of involves three key areas. And that is pre, you know, preventing disability in the workplace, returning to work after experiencing a disability, and then providing reasonable accommodation. One of the worst things, you know, that could happen for the employee is that they lose their job. And then as far as the employer side, uh, one of the worst things that could happen is them facing a lawsuit, uh, due to disability discrimination. And having said that, it it, it becomes really that much more important to start focusing or, or thinking about getting more CRCs in the private sector, working for employers, uh, because we are trained in those areas, how to<laugh> how to help individual disabilities from losing their job and help employers avoid<laugh> disability discrimination.

Pam Shlemon, CRCC: 24:26

Do you think that there are positions out there, just, it's just that we don't know how to make those connections and what to look

Dr. James McNeil: 24:35

For? So you're exactly right. There are positions out there, there are jobs out there for rehabilitation professionals. There are jobs out there for certified rehabilitation counselors. Uh, in my experience, most job postings won't say hiring for crc. You really have to think outside the box. You really have to use keywords that, that are similar to counselor, rehabilitation counselor in order to locate a job that's specific to what you do. So that's why I make it a point to, uh, try to get as many keyword out there as possible for you to put in the field box to search. Hopefully it'll yield more results. Uh, there's more, there's more keywords out there that could be, for example, uh, vocational consultant, disability specialist, disability case manager, human resources. The reason why that's important, so, so there's human resources specialist. There's human resources consultant. Why is that important? Nine times outta 10, that's the department you're gonna be working under. When you work in the private sector, when you work for the employer, their departments are called what Human resources department, what's in the Human Resources Department, benefits, disability leaves. And so that's most likely the department you're going to be working under. And so a lot of times the position might be called Human Resources and Specialists.

Pam Shlemon, CRCC: 25:58

I also think the profession is not well known in the public sector, which is certified re of counselors do, um, which C R C is working on. But there's also the issue that employers don't value the crc. And I think just what you said, you can go in to any of these positions with your credential, and while they, I'm gonna use the word, don't value it, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think once you get into that position and with any position, you have to advocate for yourself on your skills and knowledge and what that brings to the employer. And I know CRC has to do work on to, to make sure that employers recognize what the importance and the impact of CRC can have on that organization. Would you agree or disagree with that statement?

Dr. James McNeil: 26:44

I would agree with it. Um, I, I think I would say it, it's, it is not so much that employers don't value the CRC as much as they don't know about the crc. It's been my experience that once in my cases is I was hired and started working and producing for employers. They saw me as really important, therefore, they seen me as an asset. They seen me as valuable, but prior to my arrival, the prior to them bringing me on, it's very easy for me to believe that they just didn't know that people like me with the background existed<laugh>. And there's a ton of us. So, so there's gonna be a lot of pioneers. There's going to be a lot of CRC Pioneer. That's another one I like. Write that to write that down too, Pam, CRC pioneers,<laugh>, you're gonna be the first because this is kind of new for us, branching out of our comfort zone. And instead of, again, working with employers, now we're saying, let's work for employers as a rehabilitation professional. Chances are you're going to be the first, you're gonna be the first to do that, but you are gonna be so important because the employer's gonna see how effective you are. And that's gonna open the door for other CRCs to work alongside you for that employer.

Pam Shlemon, CRCC: 28:01

What would you recommend to someone who may be con consider leaving and giving up their CRC today for what may lie ahead in the

Dr. James McNeil: 28:10

Future? Uh, the first, the first thing I would say is don't give it up<laugh>. If you're considering giving up the crc, I would say don't do it. Uh, don't do it because it separates you from any other healthcare professional. Ooh, I like that. I'm saying a lot. This is a lot of, lot of good stuff that I'm saying right now. It's the CRC separates you from other healthcare professionals. So what essentially am I saying? I'm saying that you are a healthcare professional, but the difference between you as a healthcare professional and another healthcare professional is that CRC that is the highest credential, um, within the field of rehabilitation that you can achieve. So number one, it's, it's just meaningful itself just to have it. And two, uh, for you to work so hard and to learn so much to achieve it, all of these things that you learned and work so hard for you actually get to apply in the field, in practice and have it displaying. The CRC says that either you know what to do or you know how to find out what to do. And that's my take on it. I would also say that it's just a matter of time before businesses and corporations know about it. It is not so much that they don't value it, it's just that they don't know. And then when you get the word out more, you start building, uh, more relationships with businesses, then they start to know about it. And then once they know about it, they say, well, hey, guess what? It's important. We want to, uh, create a campaign,<laugh><laugh> to, to entice CRCs to get more CRCs to come and work for work for us. It's happening. I have many CRC friends that are now working for places like Google and Meta and Amazon and, and Prudential. They're all over now. They're spread out. But the more people who start to think outside the box, which is, Hey, what do it be like to work for an employer? Then you'll take that risk. You'll get higher, you'll be able to do what the employer is, uh, needs you to do and go above and beyond. And then it's going to, again, you're, you are the person that's going to, uh, open the door and other CRCs are gonna notice that other employers are gonna notice that. And then the word is going to be out more and more and

Pam Shlemon, CRCC: 30:28

More. I couldn't agree with you more. And I think that we all have to be pioneers in this effort. You know, CRC is gonna take the lead and start, uh, as you know, sitting on the CRC board the work that we need to do to make sure that, uh, this profession is elevated and people understand the work that is being done and the experience that you bring and the impact and the return on investment employer would have by hiring somebody with your credentials and skillsets. And I think it's true also that as a C R C, you have to advocate for yourself as well and the profession. And I think that's important to the employer, but also to the clients that you serve. Um, yes. Cause that is so important that the clients understand the background that you come from and, and what experience you bring to them is so important because we want clients to be advocating to get the best quality services from the best qualified individual. So, um, a lot of folks, um, in discuss rehabilitation counseling is a pathway that they felt compelled to follow. What so far has brought you the most joy in, in what you have done so far in, in your work?

Dr. James McNeil: 31:34

Wow. That is a, that's a great question. I would say it all boils the, whatever I, whatever I can think, I'm thinking of many things, but I, I think it all would be grouped under this phrase that is, uh, the relationships that I've built, that I've established. It's the relationships, the relationships with the employees with disabilities, the job applicants with disabilities, the employers. And when I say employers, I, I, I want to describe what I'm talking about cuz I'm, I'm not just talking about the building, I'm talking about managers, administrators, supervisors, department heads. The relationships that you build with them are so, are so important because one, you are relying on them to better understand the job, the employer's concern and the, the employee's concerned. So there's two, it's, it's sometimes like when you work in a private sector, it's not just about meeting the needs of the employee, it's also about meeting the needs of the employer. That's very important. Both things can happen. I wanna say that it doesn't have to be either or both things can happen where you can satisfy the employee and you can satisfy the employer. We have the skills to do that. And so that has been one of the most rewarding, I'm gonna speak plainly. When you get to the point where you've helped an employee return to work or stay at work, essentially they can come back and do their job or a job that's satisfying. You feel good about that, but you, it is just as satisfying when that employee's manager is also happy saying, Hey, guess what? It didn't require us to change the way we, we do things. We, our pro our productivity or our rate or these things that would cause the company to lose money or lose customers. You know, what the employer is concerned about. Yeah. And that's okay. That's actually a good thing because again, you can address both as a rehabilitation professional working in the private sector and when you can achieve both, um, it's like a double the reward

Pam Shlemon, CRCC: 33:34

<laugh>. Sure. It just, uh, represents the footprint you leave behind and how important the work is and, and the impact that you make to, again, it's not just one, it's not the employer, it's, it's, it's everybody. So, and I just wanted to add that, um, you are creating a self-study course under e University talking about this very much more detail, um, that should be coming out in June. So we hope that, uh, people tune into that because it is important. It's got a lot of great information if you're looking to transition over to the private sector. Even if you're not, there's a lot of good information, um, to have on there. So Dr. McNeil, thank you again. Again, we thank you for your support and, um, look forward to, uh, working with you on and other, on other projects.

Dr. James McNeil: 34:25

Yes, Pam, thank you for inviting me again. This was awesome. I had a great time. I hope there was at least one thing that, uh, someone can take away. But at the end of the day, you know, um, there's a need for us for CRCs in the private sector and I'll, I'll, I'll be even more specific. There's a need for us rehabilitation professionals to work for fi Fortune 500 companies to work for mid-size companies and small businesses. There's a need and, and we can do it. We already have the skills. There might be some things that you, you need to learn, you know, business skills or the, the way that, you know, how a business thinks. But there are trainings coming out and, uh, as, as Pam you mentioned, there's a self-study within the CRC that's going to expose you to that, some of these things that you need to know. So there's some things that, that, that are coming down the pipeline. But for the most part, if you are a crc, you have most of the skills that you need already.

Pam (Voiceover): 35:25

Thanks again to Dr. James McNeil. If there's a C or C or someone you think we should speak with for this podcast, or maybe you have a question you'd like us to answer in future episode, let us know by emailing us at contact us@crccertification.com. Please be sure to subscribe to this show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google podcast, or wherever you're listening to us today. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn at CRC Cert and our website is crc certification.com. Until next time, I'm CRC executive director, Pam Schleman. Thank you for listening to Inside Rehabilitation Counseling.